During the intervention, the scale of resources required is actually not large. If done efficiently, it will not significantly impact our domestic aid. But efficiency is key. You can indiscriminately distribute useless water pumps to villages that lack food, but that won’t help anyone.
Tucker Carlson: Yes, I think you have a point. Aid to Africa over the past 60 years has proven this, even as life expectancy declines. But as a moral issue, how can you justify being concerned about malaria while your cousin is addicted to Xanax? Shouldn’t you address that problem first?
SBF: If I could, I would. But at the end of the day, we all have responsibilities. If I know my cousin well and know how to solve the issue, then I absolutely have the responsibility to do so. But if I’ve tried and made no progress, and I can save lives internationally, or someone else can, I don’t think that undermines the good they can do abroad, even if they can’t resolve their family issues.
Tucker Carlson: Alright, I understand what you mean. I don’t think it’s a crazy viewpoint. One last question: can you think of a recent clear success story in international aid?
SBF: To some extent, yes, but I won’t specify which project. It’s not a government project, but rather some private initiatives. In fact, malaria is a great example. Through primarily private donations, global malaria incidence has significantly decreased, especially in Africa and India, saving potentially hundreds of thousands of lives each year, with the average cost per life saved being in the thousands of dollars. Relative to scale, this is an astonishing success.
We’re not talking about a trillion dollars; we’re talking about billions of dollars that have been used very prudently for malaria prevention. Of course, you can also see some government programs that are completely ineffective. If you want a successful government initiative, the Marshall Plan might be a good example—although that dates back quite a while—it successfully rebuilt Germany after World War II in many ways.
Tucker Carlson: Yes, although we may have destroyed all of that by blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline. But you’re right. How old are you now?
SBF: To be honest, I have to think about it. In prison, time becomes blurry; each day feels the same as the one before. The answer is, tomorrow is my birthday, so I’m currently 32, but I’ll soon be 33.
Tucker Carlson: How do you plan to celebrate your birthday?
SBF: I don’t celebrate. I hardly celebrated birthdays when I was outside, and celebrating another year in prison is not something I find exciting.
Tucker Carlson: So you won’t tell Diddy tomorrow is your birthday? I don’t believe that.
SBF: Maybe someone else will tell him, but I don’t plan to.
Tucker Carlson: Well, you’ll be 33 tomorrow. If you aren’t pardoned, according to the current situation, how old will you be when you are released?
SBF: That’s a complicated calculation, and I’m not entirely clear on the details because there’s a possibility of sentence reduction. If you simply add my age to my sentence, the answer is close to 50.
Tucker Carlson: Can you handle that?
SBF: Sorry, I misspoke. If you include all possible reductions, it could be in my 50s. But the correct answer is, I was 32 when I was convicted, with a 25-year sentence, so I’d be 57.
Tucker Carlson: You’ve served 2 years, with 23 years left. Do you think you can endure that?
SBF: That’s a good question. I’m not sure. The hardest part is having nothing meaningful to do here. You see, studies show that the suicide rate in prisons is about three times that of the normal population. So, taking a 25-year sentence and multiplying it by 3, then adding my age of 32 at the time of conviction, might give you an answer. Maybe.
Tucker Carlson: I find that a bit strange. You might be the most extreme example of someone who has jumped from one world to a completely different one that I’ve talked to. You were once in the world of digital currency, but now you’re in a world without money. What is the medium of exchange in prison?
SBF: You know, it’s just whatever people have on hand. For example, muffins, those little plastic-wrapped muffins you see at gas station counters, packed in a plastic ball, independent packages of muffins that have been sitting at room temperature for a week. Imagine that kind of thing; that’s the standard. Or a pack of ramen soup, or a pack of disgusting-looking fish swimming in oil, also at room temperature.
Tucker Carlson: So, you’ve transitioned from cryptocurrency to a muffin economy. Right. How do you compare the two? Clearly, muffins would be more difficult to circulate internationally, but as a form of currency, what do you think?
SBF: In the short term, muffins are unlikely to become a global reserve currency. They are a demand currency, with no other use, and not much intrinsic value. But ultimately, they have some interchangeability. While not completely interchangeable, they are close enough. Two muffins are roughly similar, so you can exchange them. As long as the transaction doesn’t exceed $5, they are still usable. But if you want to make a $200 transaction with muffins, that’s impractical.
Tucker Carlson: Too cumbersome.
SBF: Exactly. One thing you quickly realize is that everything in prison is scaled down. You see people fighting over a banana, not because they care that much about the banana, but because they have no other outlet.
Tucker Carlson: That sounds brutal. Do you eat those muffins, or do you just trade with them?
SBF: I just trade with them. I don’t eat them. I mainly eat rice, beans, and ramen.
Tucker Carlson: It seems like that’s working for you. Do you have any tattoos?
SBF: I don’t. I know some people do, but I don’t have any myself.
Tucker Carlson: Have you ever thought about it?
SBF: I did think about getting a tattoo. But after talking to my cellmates about their sterilization procedures—or lack thereof—the idea was discarded. I’m not interested in tattoos; it’s not worth the risk of hepatitis. They probably sterilize the needle after it’s been used on four or five people.
Tucker Carlson: Well, so you won’t get a tattoo. Since you’re already out of the outside world and facing a 23-year sentence, I wonder, have any of the people you helped— I mean, you went to prison because you harmed people, but you also helped many in Washington through your donations— has anyone reached out to you, saying “Good luck, hope you’re doing well”? Or have they said nothing?
SBF: Right after the collapse, I received many kind messages from people, including some from Washington. But six months later, no one contacted me anymore. By the time of the trial, I was in prison, and there was no more communication. It became too politically sensitive, and people were unwilling to risk reaching out to me. I even heard some people speaking well of me in private, but no one was willing to contact me directly.
Tucker Carlson: Has anyone reached out to you? I noticed that someone who I thought was your girlfriend testified against you. Do you have friends who have remained loyal in their support, or is it almost none?
SBF: Yes, but very few. I later realized that anyone who was close to me would ultimately be threatened. They were told there were two choices, one of which could mean decades in prison. Ryan Salem is the most heartbreaking example, and from the government’s perspective, the most disgusting. They accused him of completely absurd crimes. He said, “No, I’ll see you in court.” Then the government came back and said, “Well, what about your pregnant wife? What if we put her in prison?” So he pled guilty because the government threatened to imprison his wife. No legal system would allow the prosecution to do that. And he wasn’t even charged with most of the crimes that other plea deal participants faced. Ryan didn’t testify at the trial because he didn’t want to lie or say what the government wanted him to say. As a result, he received a sentence four times longer than the combined sentences of the other three. The message conveyed is crystal clear. Was it because he’s a Republican, or because he refused to cooperate with the government’s lies at trial? I can only think of those two reasons for why they sentenced him to seven and a half years.
Tucker Carlson: That’s disgusting. I’ve interviewed him at home. I think they also accused his wife. What they did is completely unethical.
SBF: I completely agree. They broke their promises, which completely shattered any notion of their integrity. It’s disgusting. He’s a good person, and he shouldn’t have to endure this.
Tucker Carlson: Are you aware that the outside world is changing so rapidly? By the time you get out, the world may be completely different from when you left. For example, the development of AI; it sounds like we’re approaching artificial general intelligence (AGI) or some kind of singularity.
SBF: Yes, I feel that profoundly. It’s a feeling of the world moving on while you’re left behind.
Tucker Carlson: Is having children part of your effective altruism philosophy?
SBF: No. Different people in the community have different views on this. Over the past five years, I’ve felt like I’ve had around 300 children—my employees. Obviously, I can’t treat them all like a father, but I feel responsible for them. I feel very sad that their work has been ruined. But while running FTX, I had almost no personal life. Now in prison, I obviously don’t have the conditions to have children.
Tucker Carlson: Have any of those 300 employees come to visit you in prison?
SBF: No. I think the answer is no. Maybe one or two people have come.
Tucker Carlson: You might want to consider having a few real children at some point, because when things go bad, they will be there for you.
SBF: That makes me start to think about what real reliance is and the extent to which intimidation can reach in some systems in our country. But at the same time, it makes me realize how important it is to have people to rely on.
Tucker Carlson: Others are everything. SBF, I appreciate you accepting this interview, possibly your only interview where you won’t be pressed about business because that’s other people’s business. But I’m glad we talked about these things, and I hope you say hello to Diddy for us.
SBF: I definitely will.
Tucker Carlson: I can hardly believe you and Diddy are in the same prison.
SBF: I know, right? If someone had told me three years ago that I would be spending every day with Diddy, I would have found that amusing. I wonder if he’s also gotten into cryptocurrency?
Tucker Carlson: Life is indeed strange. I wish you all the best, thank you. It seems YouTube is suppressing this show. From one perspective, that’s not surprising; that’s what they do. But from another perspective, it’s shocking. With so much change happening in the world, in our economy and politics, on the brink of war, Google decides you should receive less information rather than more. That’s completely wrong. Tomorrow, what can you do? We can complain, but that would be a waste of time. We can’t control Google. Or we can find ways around it to truly get you real information instead of intentionally misleading information.
Interview video link: This article is authorized for reprint from Lidu BlockBeats.